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| 201. Author: GG Riva Date: Tue 7th Nov 2023. 20:56 Parboiled, Tue 7 Nov 19:46 Why not? I just wanted to read the articles where this was reported and decide for myself if they are credible or not. Eta. There will be plenty of "unsubstantiated guff" put out before this war is finished. History teaches us that the history of wars is written by the victors.  Not your average Sunday League player. Post Edited (Tue 07 Nov 21:07) Reply |
| 202. Author: Buspasspar Date: Tue 7th Nov 2023. 21:44 To be fair GG I did think that you were questioning Oz on his post and his allegations as you described them .. to see if they were genuine Oz has posted the best on this thread without any doubt .. and I am sure he will not hold your reservations against you .. He is a top guy We are forever shaped by the Children we once were Reply |
| 203. Author: sammer Date: Tue 7th Nov 2023. 22:20 A member of a jury is not confined to make his decision merely on established facts. He is entitled to draw inferences and conclusions from the evidence as presented as a whole. On that basis I would, beyond a reasonable doubt, conclude that Israel was responsible for the Gaza hospital attack during Biden’s visit. They had hit that particular hospital previously and others in the years before. They have since targeted other hospitals on the pretext they house Hamas fighters or are built above underground tunnels used by Hamas. The fact the missile was reported as being an Israeli missile by the manager of the hospital- a British medic- and the nature of the explosion to me are guilt beyond a reasonable doubt. Biden’s Reaganesque folksy disclaimer-‘ I think the other guys did it’- has the ring of duplicity. Biden is an established serial liar going back to his teenage years, hence his success in US politics. His son seems cast from the same mould. The October 7th attack is harder to unravel. Hamas has conceded that non Hamas groups followed them through the fence- most of them had never been out of Hamas in their entire lives- and any atrocities would have been committed by them. It’s a bit too neat for me to pass any blame that way, but Hamas did have an agenda and that seemed to revolve around killing IDF reservists at military outposts and kidnapping civilians. Hardly noble behaviour, especially given the age range of the captives, but I struggle to understand why any insurgent force would waste time beheading babies or raping women. And is 40 babies not an astonishingly high number as well as a neat one? This was a well planned insurgency, requiring the element of surprise, so sadism or bloodlust would have been detrimental to the whole enterprise. So on balance, at the moment I will go for that bastard verdict: non proven mostly on the Hamas concession that they were not the only insurgents. sammer Reply |
| 204. Author: OzPar Date: Wed 8th Nov 2023. 02:42 GG is correct in asking me to identify my sources for the allegations that I made in my last post. And I am happy to do so, provided we acknowledge that all the information we receive on Gaza is being filtered in one way or another. Israel forbids foreign journalists from reporting from Gaza. Instead, stories from Gaza are being fed to us by reporters who go to bed between clean sheets every night in comfortable hotels overlooking the beach in Tel Aviv. The Qatari news network, Al Jazeera, has an operation in Gaza, though it has been targeted by the IDF on several occasions, the worst of which was the bombing of their 11-storey tower block office building in 2021. One of their best-known journalists, Shireen Abu Akleh, was assassinated by the IDF last year. Obviously, Gaza is not a safe environment for journalists, but there are a few brave freelance reporters with contacts in the growing independent media in the West. I list the ones I have found most reliable to date below. Concerning my main critical comments on my last post, these two links were beneficial: - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i3h3s3zqywo https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gix368ttojs I strongly commend the works of respected academics like Ilan Pappe and Professor Norman Finkelstein, who offer tremendous historical perspective and context on the Israel/Palestine conflict. Ilan Pappe https://www.aljazeera.com/opinions/2023/11/5/why-israel-wants-to-erase-context-and-history-in-the-war-on-gaza Prof. Norman Finkelstein https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nufwthbcs78 For other, more news-oriented sources, these are some of the links I have found useful and generally reliable on YouTube: - Al Jazeera English Novara Media Free Will Electronic Intifada Katie Halper The Real News Network I hope this is of some assistance. Reply |
| 205. Author: GG Riva Date: Wed 8th Nov 2023. 07:50 Buspasspar, Tue 7 Nov 21:44 I wasn`t intentionally questioning Oz, BPP. I used the term "allegations" in its purest sense. i.e. to describe something that has been presented as fact without conclusive evidence. For me, there are two sets of allegations here: 1. Many children were beheaded by Hamas on Oct 7. 2. The above statement is a pack of lies. Obviously, 1 and 2 can`t both be true, but we don`t know which. That`s why I refer to them (both) as allegations. That`s what I meant anyway. Not your average Sunday League player. Reply |
| 206. Author: sadindiefreak Date: Wed 8th Nov 2023. 07:58 The second picture here is of a beheaded baby. These pictures are not for the faint hearted so viewer discretion is advised. There is a 47 minute video that gas had screenings to journalists and diplomats of the atrocities committed by Hamas. Gal Gadot has held a screening of the video in Los Angeles also. Sarah Silverman who has been a long time supporter of the Palestinian cause was challenged on social media to provide evidence of the beheadings. She has since resigned from "Dems for Palestine". She sought out the videos and confirmed she had seen the beheading footage herself. I have absolutely no doubt this massacre happened. !! Links deleted - Admin Reply |
| 207. Author: Buspasspar Date: Wed 8th Nov 2023. 08:21 GG .. I understand Oz .. another good post SIF .. I cant watch anything like that We are forever shaped by the Children we once were Reply |
| 208. Author: The One Who Knocks Date: Wed 8th Nov 2023. 09:39 I had heard of these screenings SIF but I chose not to search out the evidence for myself as, like Buspass, I don`t want images like that seared into my memory. I did want to believe Oz when he assured as that the Israeli claims of such atrocities were fabricated but I knew it could be all too probable. And although my eyes were open They just might as well be closed Reply |
| 209. Author: OzPar Date: Wed 8th Nov 2023. 10:17 No one is denying Hamas carried out dreadful atrocities on October 7. That would be absurd. The point is that there are Israeli witnesses to some of the events offering alternative versions to claims being made by the Israeli Government. Reply |
| 210. Author: The One Who Knocks Date: Wed 8th Nov 2023. 10:26 Yes it would be absurd but you posted this yesterday Oz; "And now it is emerging that many of the early Israeli claims about the actions taken by Hamas on October 7 were untrue. Child beheadings, rapes, Jewish mass graves, even the number of Israelis killed by Hamas fighters. Fiction." And although my eyes were open They just might as well be closed Reply |
| 211. Author: OzPar Date: Wed 8th Nov 2023. 10:28 Correct. And my view has not changed. Reply |
| 212. Author: buffy Date: Wed 8th Nov 2023. 11:24 I’m sorry SIF but I’ve asked admin to remove your links. Please don’t post links to harmful content. This isn’t the place to do it - I don’t think there is anywhere one can or should - and it’s not to deflect from what’s happening in Israel and Gaza. ”Buffy’s Buns are the finest in Fife”, J. Spence 2019” Reply |
| 213. Author: sadindiefreak Date: Wed 8th Nov 2023. 11:29 buffy, Wed 8 Nov 11:24 Someone is denying these atrocities happened and I`ve provided evidence they have. Nobody needs to click these links. The first link is the only one that has photos and video. I will remove the click ability of that link incase Someone accidentally opens it but censorship to provide support for a terrorist organisations propaganda is not on. Edit - See they have already been deleted. This is an absolute disgrace. Lies about a savage massacre of innocent people are posted here and evidence they are lies gets deleted. Post Edited (Wed 08 Nov 11:32) Reply |
| 214. Author: brian Date: Wed 8th Nov 2023. 11:41 The BBC has a whole verification department. It`s fair not to provide the links from here please 😁 Not saying the links are true or false. Post Edited (Wed 08 Nov 11:45) Reply |
| 215. Author: sadindiefreak Date: Wed 8th Nov 2023. 11:55 brian, Wed 8 Nov 11:41 Delete the links Oz posted as well then. Otherwise its censorship supporting a terrorist organisation. If your rules are only verified by BBC links then it should be same across the board. Reply |
| 216. Author: Wotsit Date: Wed 8th Nov 2023. 12:15 It`s not about the perspective of the links though SIF, it`s about the content. It is not unreasonable to ask that you verify the veracity of the claims without showing graphic. images of beheaded children; nobody wants or needs to see that on a Wednesday lunchtime. We also don`t want to see graphic images of charred children`s corpses lying in Gazan rubble. The enemy travels by private jet, not by dinghy. Reply |
| 217. Author: The One Who Knocks Date: Wed 8th Nov 2023. 12:31 Yeah it is all about the content SIF. Like I said earlier, those are images I don`t need to see and it`s not about burying my head in the sand. The reports of the atrocities have been well documented by respected journalists now so I`m sadly accepting that they happened. And although my eyes were open They just might as well be closed Reply |
| 218. Author: sadindiefreak Date: Wed 8th Nov 2023. 12:41 Wotsit, Wed 8 Nov 12:15 So how do you verify beheaded children without actual footage? The word of people who were on the scene was clearly not enough for Ozpar, the Canary or the socialist worker. For 43 years I`ve supported the Palestinian cause, been on demonstrations, donated, etc. That ended on 7th October. I have no idea what the solution is, I don`t know what an appropriate response to 7th October would have been. Not one supporter of Palestine has been able to answer that question when I`ve asked. What I do know is Hamas must never be in a position to do this again. How that is achieved I don`t know. For as long as I can remember Israel have used a sledgehammer to crack a nut which was why I backed Palestine. Every single innocent life lost here is a tragedy. Maybe to get rid of Hamas a sledgehammer is what`s needed this time. Or maybe it will make things even worse. I`ve never before taken the time to look at this from an Israeli perspective and what an eye opener it`s been. For years I used the massacre of Janin as an example of Israels evil, only to find out this month that there was no massacre of civilians, 5 died the rest were terrorists killed in fighting. At the time Palestinian authorities claimed 800 civilians had been bulldozed in their homes. Reply |
| 219. Author: Wotsit Date: Wed 8th Nov 2023. 13:21 It is a football forum with children and folk with, for example, PTSD using it. You shouldn`t require any more reason than that to understand why it isn`t reasonable to post those images here, even if that means you not being able to make your point as clearly as you would like. The enemy travels by private jet, not by dinghy. Reply |
| 220. Author: sadindiefreak Date: Wed 8th Nov 2023. 13:44 Wotsit, Wed 8 Nov 13:21 Having given it due consideration, I agree. Reply |
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