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| 261. Author: sammer Date: Thu 23rd Nov 2023. 23:58 Arabs, Jews and Christians, and a few other religions I guess, seemed to live in reasonable harmony in what we call Israel/Palestine for a few thousand years. I don’t accept that Homo Sapiens is a failed species. I said ‘reasonable harmony’ because neighbours will always have disputes. But any outsiders are surely obliged to intervene and try to establish some sort of peace. That is what good men do when a fight breaks out in a bar. Bad men, in contrast, back one side in order to promote their own interests on the back of that dispute. This is what we are witnessing in Ukraine and Gaza. As a species we have the capacity to sink our differences and accept a compromise, albeit through gritted teeth. But that cannot happen when outside agencies are egging on the conflict for their own ends. sammer Reply |
| 262. Author: parsfan Date: Fri 24th Nov 2023. 10:26 sammer, Thu 23 Nov 23:58 Like Russia sending troops into The Donbas in 2014? ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ The universe is ruled by chance and indifference  Reply |
| 263. Author: jake89 Date: Fri 24th Nov 2023. 13:03 I`d suggest it`s not strictly for religious reasons but more cultural ones. Of course, these cultural differences often stem from religious belief, but also from just how different people live their lives. Reply |
| 264. Author: red-star-par Date: Fri 24th Nov 2023. 15:24 Quite a good post there from Sammer. I have travelled all over the shop and spoke to people from many different backgrounds, religions, ethnic groups. The overwhelming majority of them just want to live peacefully and don`t wish to wage war on another group if it can be helped. The problem is really governments. There is no profit in peace, so the leaders of the world are constantly trying to create issues, create division, stoke up trouble, have people living in fear. The US in particular have ruined so many countries, waging war by proxy. We have seen them at it again, cajoling Ukraine, and now it seems they have become bored and left them to get on with it, preferring instead to use Israel to poke a stick at the Arab world Reply |
| 265. Author: GG Riva Date: Fri 24th Nov 2023. 17:15 Today, Hamas has released 24 hostages; 13 Israelis, 10 Thais and 1 Philippino. In exchange, Israel has released 39 [b]women and children![/b] What were these women and children doing in Israeli prisons? Are we expected to believe they are terrorists?  Not your average Sunday League player. Post Edited (Fri 24 Nov 17:26) Reply |
| 266. Author: onandupthepars Date: Fri 24th Nov 2023. 17:29 Ref: sammer Thu 23 Nov 23:58 "neighbours will always have disputes. But any outsiders are surely obliged to intervene and try to establish some sort of peace. That is what good men do when a fight breaks out in a bar. Bad men, in contrast, back one side in order to promote their own interests on the back of that dispute. This is what we are witnessing in Ukraine and Gaza." "As a species we have the capacity to sink our differences and accept a compromise, albeit through gritted teeth. But that cannot happen when outside agencies are egging on the conflict for their own ends." ref: red-star-par Fri 24 Nov 15:24, responding to sammer`s: "Quite a good post" -------------------------------------------------- You are jokin` yeh? Who d`you think are the "bad men" and who is by far the biggest outside agency in Ukraine? (Bearing in mind it invaded and is occupying part of the country.) Ukraine: the story so far, according to sammer the bammer The good guys – Russia – mobilized their army and being good guys, were "obliged" (re sammer) "to intervene" in Ukraine on a peace mission. The bad guys – Ukrainians – keep aggressively putting their bodies in the way of “peace bullets” and “peace missiles” etc., the traditional Russian signs of peace and friendship. The bad Ukrainians only needed to give up their land and surrender to the good Russians and there would have been peace. The Ukrainians are so bad, they even built homes, towns and cities, exactly where Russian “peace missiles” were likely to land. All Russia has tried to do was to sincerely extend the hand of friendship and peace, and Ukraine and the West have been hostile and nasty in return. And yet, Russia will not give way to such bad people. She continues to selflessly send them even more of her “peace missiles”, whether they are appreciated or not. Another typical bammer Post Edited (Fri 24 Nov 18:01) Reply |
| 267. Author: onandupthepars Date: Fri 24th Nov 2023. 17:53 I noticed that GG Riva. Something on the news last night about the women and children Israel had captive: `Who are the Palestinian Prisoners who could be released in a hostage deal?` https://www.nytimes.com/2023/11/21/world/hamas-prisoners-hostage-deal.html `Anxious, optimistic: Families of female Palestinian prisoners await release` https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2023/11/22/anxious-optimistic-families-of-female-palestinian-prisoners-await-release Post Edited (Fri 24 Nov 17:59) Reply |
| 268. Author: Dave_1885 Date: Fri 24th Nov 2023. 17:54 GG Riva, Fri 24 Nov 17:15 Children equates to up to 18 years old I believe - could have been in prison for a number of reasons, remember a lot of the defiance is shown by youths throwing rocks at soldiers…the good thing is there has been a pause in fighting and hostages have been released. Reply |
| 269. Author: parsfan Date: Sat 25th Nov 2023. 00:27 That`s the not-a-ceasefire started. What are Sunak, Starmer and all the others opposed to a ceasefire thinking now? Will they be looking forward to the bombing resuming? Counting down the hours until the slaughter starts again? I`m looking forward to some of them being put on the spot this weekend. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ The universe is ruled by chance and indifference Reply |
| 270. Author: sammer Date: Sat 25th Nov 2023. 14:38 It seems to me that OAUTP thinks that the Russian invasion of 22nd February and the Hamas incursion of 7th October came out of a clear blue sky. They were both responses to political failure in respect of treaties designed to keep the peace. The Minsk Accords were signed in order to settle the dispute inside the Donbas region, but we now know that the Ukrainian leadership which signed them- as well as its ‘guarantors’ France and Germany- had no attention of honouring them. Similarly the Palestinians have had UN resolutions passed in their favour since 1967 and more recently signed the Oslo Accords, but again it appears there is no goodwill on the other side to implement these. The most acceptable answer to these two conflicts has already been established and signed up to, but neither has been enacted. And that political failure to comply with an agreed legal remedy does not lie solely at the door of the combatants. sammer Reply |
| 271. Author: onandupthepars Date: Sat 25th Nov 2023. 21:52 Ref: sammer Sat 25 Nov 14:38 "Political failures." But by who? Sammer-bot would have us believe the political failures were all on the side of the West. Well, how much did the Minsk Accords mean to Putin? Diddly squat. Queer how the response of Russia was the ultimate violence: just go straight to the worst possible scenario: all out war. Likewise Israel, in response to Hamas - all out war on Palestinians. Shows how much peace means to the "combatants." And at whose "door" do the political failures lie, if not the initiators of terror and war, (Russia, Hamas and Israel) who completely give up on peace? Post Edited (Sat 25 Nov 21:55) Reply |
| 272. Author: sammer Date: Sat 25th Nov 2023. 22:29 ```And at whose "door" do the political failures lie, if not the initiators of terror and war, (Russia, Hamas and Israel) who completely give up on peace?``` Notice the omission of Ukraine, whose government was shelling Donbas from 2914 from any blame. 15,000 died as a result that. When Ukriane got back more than they bargained for, they pleaded to the West for help. In the name of sovereignty as I understand. Notice also OAUTP`s understanding of the failure to acknowledge the attempts at peace in both of these conflicts. Has OUATP ever heard of the Oslo Accords far less the Minsk Accords? He`s a NATO man, same as HJ I suspect. Anyone who uses the word `terror` is an idiot. All governments work on the basis of terror: what they object to is a rival `terror.` It may be astonishing to OUATP, and perhaps flattering, but the greatest threat to his government is actually him. Not some foreign power. If he is too weak to exert his democratic accountability then I am as helpless myself. But we need to keep the pressure on. . sammer Reply |
| 273. Author: veteraneastender Date: Sun 26th Nov 2023. 08:45 GG - female suicide bombers have perpetrated attacks inside Israel. Terrorism is not reserved for men. Reply |
| 274. Author: GG Riva Date: Sun 26th Nov 2023. 09:08 veteraneastender, Sun 26 Nov 08:45 Indeed, VEE, but presumably, these women are not part of the prison population? Not your average Sunday League player. Reply |
| 275. Author: veteraneastender Date: Sun 26th Nov 2023. 12:32 Hamas have used female suicide bombers in the past and the Israeli security agencies have thwarted a few attacks, presumably these are the women being held in prison ? Reply |
| 276. Author: GG Riva Date: Sun 26th Nov 2023. 16:20 veteraneastender, Sun 26 Nov 12:32 Yea, I was just being a smartass. 🙄 Not your average Sunday League player. Reply |
| 277. Author: onandupthepars Date: Mon 27th Nov 2023. 01:06 Ref: sammer, Sat 25 Nov 22:29 [quoting onandup:] "And at whose "door" do the political failures lie, if not the initiators of terror and war, (Russia, Hamas and Israel) who completely give up on peace?" [Sammer:] “Notice the omission of Ukraine, whose government was shelling Donbas from 2914 [2014] from any blame. 15,000 died as a result [of] that.” ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I made a couple of wee corrections for sammer there. I guess he was in such a hurry to blurt out his piece that he accidentally predicted a conflict 900 years in advance. I`m so glad he noticed that I left Ukraine out of my list of initiators of terror and war - since the other three (Russia, Hamas and Israel) qualify, but Ukraine does not - neither did Ukraine initiate the conflict in the Donbas in 2014. Russia again takes the plaudits there. Of course he didn`t mean to mislead anyone into thinking that Ukraine caused 15,000 deaths, just that was the total on all sides. The rest of his blurt is an attempt at persuasion and character assassination – but it`s so ineffective in its aims – that it has the opposite effect to what`s intended. It’s such a good example of sammer’s version of English – what I’d call bumbling Trumpism – that I think it’s worth repeating: "When Ukriane [Ukraine] got back more than they bargained for, they pleaded to the West for help. In the name of sovereignty as I understand. Notice also OAUTP`s understanding of the failure to acknowledge the attempts at peace in both of these conflicts. Has OUATP ever heard of the Oslo Accords far less the Minsk Accords? He`s a NATO man, same as HJ I suspect. Anyone who uses the word `terror` is an idiot. All governments work on the basis of terror: what they object to is a rival `terror.` It may be astonishing to OUATP, and perhaps flattering, but the greatest threat to his government is actually him. Not some foreign power. If he is too weak to exert his democratic accountability then I am as helpless myself. But we need to keep the pressure on."  Post Edited (Mon 27 Nov 01:36) Reply |
| 278. Author: onandupthepars Date: Mon 27th Nov 2023. 11:41 Ref: veteraneastender Sun 26 Nov 12:32 "Hamas have used female suicide bombers in the past and the Israeli security agencies have thwarted a few attacks, presumably these are the women being held in prison ?" -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Presumably Israel would never imprison a Palestinian for anything less than a suicide bomb attempt, and Israel would presumably be completely fair and unprejudiced towards Palestinians? https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2022/02/israels-apartheid-against-palestinians-a-cruel-system-of-domination-and-a-crime-against-humanity/ "The unlawful killing of Palestinian protestors is perhaps the clearest illustration of how Israeli authorities use proscribed acts to maintain the status quo. In 2018, Palestinians in Gaza began to hold weekly protests along the border with Israel, calling for the right of return for refugees and an end to the blockade. Before protests even began, senior Israeli officials warned that Palestinians approaching the wall would be shot. By the end of 2019, Israeli forces had killed 214 civilians, including 46 children." Well there you have it - Israel has the right to defend itself: presumably the children were a major security threat, so they were shot dead in defence of Israel. And naturally, any Palestinian in an Israeli jail must - presumably - have been an attempted suicide bomber. Post Edited (Mon 27 Nov 11:50) Reply |
| 279. Author: veteraneastender Date: Mon 27th Nov 2023. 14:29 I have no idea why ALL women Palestinian prisoners are held in Israeli jails. GG asked why there were ANY at all. Post Edited (Mon 27 Nov 14:51) Reply |
| 280. Author: onandupthepars Date: Mon 27th Nov 2023. 16:55 Ref: veteraneastender Sun 26 Nov 12:32 "Hamas have used female suicide bombers in the past and the Israeli security agencies have thwarted a few attacks, presumably these are THE WOMEN being held in prison ?" [my capital letters] Ref: veteraneastender, Mon 27 Nov 14:29 "I have no idea why ALL women Palestinian prisoners are held in Israeli jails. GG asked why there were ANY at all." ------------------------------------------------------ OK you are claiming innocence. Let`s see. "Presumably" means almost the same as "I assume." Agreed? GG Riva referred to "39 women and children." (Ref: Fri 24 Nov 17:15) And you know that, if you meant only some of those women you would have to have said SOME of those women. Agreed? Why is it that, as you give no numbers, dates or sources, and your explanation therefore might account for only a tiny minority of the women held in Israeli prisons*, you posted a statement that implies (whether intended or not) that all of them were suicide bombers who happened to have survived? Maybe your 26 Nov statement was a clumsy mistake? Would you agree that Palestinians could do without being shat on and all tarred with the same brush? *(or none at all, if e.g. they`ve all been executed) Post Edited (Mon 27 Nov 17:18) Reply |
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